From Classroom to Career: featuring Women in Skilled Trades

SD: Welcome to Enabling Automation, the podcast where we bring people from across ATS to discuss topics relevant to the automation industry. I’m your host, Sarita Dankner, and today I’m joined by Harley Shea and Soveigh Brasseur. Harley is currently an apprentice electrician in our Life Sciences Group. And Soveigh is a millwright apprentice in our Industrial Automation business. The title of today’s episode is From Classroom to Career, and we’ll be talking about the transition from education and training into the workforce, the experiences, the challenges, and the learnings along the way.

SD: Welcome, Harley and Soveigh!

SB: Nice to be here.

HS: Yeah, I’m happy to be included in this too.

SD: We’re happy to have you. So Soveigh, let’s start with your story. What first attracted you to skilled trades and how did you end up pursuing the path you are in today?

SB: So the first exposure that I had to skilled trades was actually through outreach programs that are directed towards high school girls. And through this, I was kind of encouraged to take some shop classes at my high school, and those ended up being my favorite classes that I took the whole time that I was there. And I kind of was on the fence of like, oh, I didn’t know, should I go to university? Should I go to college? So I took all of that academic courses I would need for university. But when I went and I toured the college and I spoke to the instructors for the programs that I was interested in, that just kind of made my eyes light up, and I felt much more of a draw to that. I already knew I didn’t want to sit at a desk all day from my job, using my hands is something that really resonates with me. So I actually did an education in welding first and then through a co-op placement with that, I got more exposure to different trades: electrician, millwright, toolmaker. And I found that there was so many interesting parts of different trades, and that kind of sparked my interest in the millwright trade specifically. It’s so broad, you have to know so many different things. Everything’s kind of like a puzzle, and I liked that challenge. So, after completing my welding education, I streamlined into millwrighting, and that’s where I am today.

SD: Very good. What about you, Harley? When did this type of work first spark your interest and how did you translate that into a career path?

HS: So at a very young age, I used to join my uncle a lot. This was pre high school, working on his truck and in the cars, and I had a lot of fun working in the shops with him. That sparked my interest to continue it in high school. I really enjoyed working with my hands. The sense of pride that I got from building something, standing back, looking at it and say that I did that was something that I’ve been- It’s like a thrill for me. I’ve been seeking all the time. It’s such a rewarding job in that sense. It’s something I always knew that I wanted to do was working with my hands, building things, creating things, and the opportunities that I’ve been through have prepared myself to have multiple different skill sets.

SD: Yeah, I would imagine that, you know, these are skills that you also you learn on the job. School can’t prepare you for everything. You’re learning every day on the job as you go. Is that is that right?

HS: Yeah. Yeah for sure. Definitely.

SD: That’s awesome. What about you, Soveigh? As an apprentice, what’s been the biggest adjustment from learning in a classroom environment to learning in a workplace environment?

SB: I think in a classroom environment, things are very fixed for you. There’s a specific assignment that you’re doing where all of the variables are in control, and there’s kind of no way that it can stray off that path that’s already set for you. Whereas in the workplace, I think you’ll find working in the trades, almost anything you work on tends to deviate from what you expected. Like you go in and it could be a very simple task where you have to drill these four holes to mount something, and you find that when you get up there, you can’t access where you need it to be. So then it’s a challenge of, okay, how am I going to get up there to drill these holes? Or there’s just a lot of obstacles sometimes in the way. A lot of times electricians are a really great help to us, and other times we kind of butt heads on the path when we’re routing electrical cables versus pneumatics. So trying to figure out how am I going to collaborate with what an electrician has already done, so that I can still make sure that the part of the job that I’m completing works seamlessly with the work that they’ve already done.

SD: If you could go back, Soveigh, if you could go back to your younger self when you were still in school, what’s the one thing you would tell yourself about the realities of the workplace?

SD: I’ve always been a perfectionist, and I think that I’ve held myself to a very high standard, and I think that when I was starting out in the workplace, I was really nervous that I was going to come in here and everybody’s going to be like, this girl doesn’t know what she’s doing. She has no skills. And like, I thought that that’s really how it was going to be. And I think going back to my younger self, I would say, don’t be so hard on yourself. You’re coming in here, people are expecting you to not know what you’re doing, but not in a rude way. They’re expecting and available to teach you. And I think that that’s a really important part in giving yourself grace of saying, okay, it’s not about what I don’t know. It’s about what I can learn. I love that, and I think that the best teachers and coaches and mentors that we can have are those that remember what it was like to be just starting out and not knowing everything and needing to learn and having the patience to guide someone through that part of their journey.

SD: Absolutely.  And I think that I found that having somebody teach you is actually not a slow down to the process. A lot of times it makes them stop and think about how they’re approaching a problem, when they have to explain it to somebody that hasn’t been through that themselves before.

SB: Completely agree.

SD: What about you, Harley? If you could go back and speak to your younger self when you were still in school, what’s the one thing you would tell yourself about the realities of the workplace?

HS: I would tell myself to embrace connections. Make as many as you can. Understand that that’s where a lot of opportunities come from. Collaborating with people and always asking questions. The worst answer is always going to be no and you just move on.

SD: So what I’m hearing you say is that a person who’s learning, I mean, of course our teachers and our coaches and our mentors are so important, but a person who’s learning and who’s especially new in the workplace has a responsibility, their own accountability to seek out those connections, those answers, right? On their own and to really sort of continue to be curious and pursue that learning,  not just have it happen at them. Is that right?

HS: Yeah, exactly. You’re really taught at the beginning when you sign up for your apprenticeship, to drive your apprenticeship because it’s yours. So you definitely have to make sure that you’re finding all those answers.

SD: Harley, one thing we often hear is that employers want experience, but most people

starting out in their careers have not yet had the opportunity to gain any experience. So did that happen to you? Did you did you experience that? What did you do?

HS: Yeah, I think we experienced that at the beginning of all of our lives. It doesn’t matter what industry, but specifically the trades.

SD: Yes, it’s very big.

HS: And the biggest way that I got myself into it was my first job. I always made sure to work outside of my position, and I would make sure that I knew every position in the place. I didn’t just know the one. And I continued and carried on with that mindset through every job that I’ve ever had. And that’s what eventually got me onto a forklift. That’s what got me off of the forklift and got me into the field and working in concrete. And that’s- it’s how I managed to get myself into all these different fields, is how I got myself into electrical. I was a forklift operator at that time and had a supervisor notice the hard work and the dedication, and it paid off.

SD: So again, I’m hearing this theme about really being hungry for learning and seeking out opportunities and really being proactive in your own advancement.

HS: Yeah, exactly.

SD: That’s great. Really driving your own career. So and you said that a supervisor noticed you. What was it that helped you stand out in that role?

HS: I’m sure my gender helped a lot because that already makes me stand out my size as well. I am not just a woman, but I’m also a very small woman. And that also is counter has been counterintuitive with me for a lot of things. I really have to prove myself, even just like simple tasks like heavy lifting, little things like that, I can I can do it. I don’t need a person to do my job for me. I’m paid for this job, and I applied for it for the reason that I can do it. So I’ve always tried to make sure that I’m pulling my own weight and always learning something new.

SD: It’s almost like this industry has required you to step up in a way that maybe isn’t expected of your male counterparts, potentially, but you have, and you’ve been noticed for it. That’s wonderful. I think those traits that Harley mentioned also, maybe some men might look at some of those as weaknesses, but I think that there is a counterpart to that where some of those are strengths, right? Women have a tendency to approach problems from a different perspective than men. So having a diverse team that are thinking about things in a different way is advantageous. Her size allows her to get into tight areas that not all of the guys can get into. So again, another area where that is an advantage and not necessarily a disadvantage to a team. Absolutely. Or creative problem solving. You know, if I need to find a different way to get the outcome that I need.

HS: Exactly. So yeah, definitely. That’s right. And my small hands definitely helped too. Yeah I use that one a lot. Yeah, yeah. Like the big guys help me with the tall stuff. And then I helped them with the little stuff. It’s very it works hand in hand.

SD: That’s perfect. I love that. And Soveigh, for students or recent graduates, the hardest part is often getting that first opportunity so that you can prove yourself and have those chances to, to learn and seek your own advancement. What was your experience like in finding your first role?

SB: So I would totally agree. I think regardless of the industry that you’re in, I think it is really hard to set yourself apart from thousands of applicants and get an interview for a position, because I think the hard part is getting the interview. The hard part is not proving that you’re worthy of that role. And I found that myself personally, like I was involved with a lot of things that were not direct work experience, but they were somehow related to the field of study. So I tried to be involved a lot in community outreach programs that were geared towards encouraging youth to pursue trades as I was actively trying to pursue them. And I really don’t think that you should knock the connections that you can make with people, not just in a professional setting. Think about any hobby that you could possibly participate in. Most likely, the people you’re interacting with there don’t all come from the same background, so there’s opportunities outside of going to professional networking events. You could be on a softball team and meet someone there that’s an electrician, get talking with them. Be like, oh, hey, where do you work? You know, would you be willing to put in a good word for me because it is 100%, unfortunately, who you know. And I found that like in order to get an opportunity, it did come down to who I know. And I was fortunate enough to have some friends and family members that had connections that, you know, companies that hire skilled trades. And that was how I got my first opportunity. And I at first I had a negative opinion of that. I was like, oh, you know, I feel like I’m just being handed this. I didn’t earn this position by any of my skills or capabilities. It’s just because, like my friend’s dad worked here or something, but I learned that’s not a negative. It’s not a negative of how you got in there. Once you’re in there, if you are showing that you deserve to be there, you’re capable of the job. It really doesn’t matter how the opportunity came about.

SD: I agree, I think, you know, getting your foot in the door isn’t always about really what you bring to the table, but once you’re there, you have to earn it. And if you do earn it, you get to stay. Harley, many people focus very heavily on grades or the technical training. Looking back, how important do you think those things are versus what Soveigh was talking about?

HS: You know, networking and relationships and connections. I think they’re very important. Like she said, it’s exactly how you can learn all the different places that you can go. There’s different industries that you can take your ticket to. And by networking, you can find out what those are, where they are, how to get in there. And like she said, even get a word of mouth to get yourself in, get your foot in the door. I don’t think that they’re necessarily, the grade part is not super important, as long as you’re grasping things.

SB: When it comes to grades and things, I don’t think necessarily that the actual grade outcome that you have is as important as kind of, Harley said is grasping the concept. Employers aren’t able to see what mark I finished with in that course. They’re able to see, did I complete it or did I not complete it? And I think when you’re an apprentice, having some levels of your schooling is more attractive to employers because that means that’s less time that they have to give up your labor to send you to school, because you’ve already completed that. So that comes into play in your, like, more senior years of your apprenticeship. They’re obviously looking for people that have that under their belt so that they can treat you more like a journeyman and use you for your labor, and you’re more skilled. But I think that when you’re first getting into things they’re not so concerned about, oh, did this person get an A+ in every single one of their classes? They’re looking for that person’s attitude. Are they willing to do any task that we assign them? Are they receptive to learning if we’re trying to teach them things, or do they kind of like brush anyone off that’s trying to give them extra knowledge? Do they have a positive attitude? I think that those things start to come more into play as opposed to like, if we’re looking at your stats on a piece of paper, there’s not a whole lot of value in that compared to some of the softer skills and the networking relationships, in my opinion.

SD: I agree. And sometimes some people, very smart, capable people just aren’t good at school, just not their thing.

SB: Absolutely.

SD: But then put them in the job and they can excel. So it’s not always an indicator of how good you’re going to be at what you’re doing.

SB: I think that’s seen very commonly in our line of work. Traditionally, people that are in the trades excel at working with their hands, and they don’t excel at writing essays and taking written tests and answering multiple choice questions. So there are some absolutely brilliant individuals that I’ve met that could fix anything, but they’re failing all their tests in school, so I don’t think that it’s an accurate metric to measure somebody’s capabilities and performance in the workplace.

SD: Right. They just needs someone to take a chance on them and let them prove themselves in the workplace. Absolutely. What about mentors? Harley, what role have mentors played in your career so far?

HS: Well, mentors are shaping the electrician that I’m going to be in the future.

SB: What sort of traits do you find admirable about them? Where like you’re interacting with this person and you’re like, wow, I want to be like that.

HS: Patience. I really appreciate my journeyman’s patience. And he’s constantly, always I’m able to

ask him three, even four times sometimes. And he just re-elaborates, makes sure that you understand exactly what you need to do and what is happening when you walk away. You don’t have any other questions. He’s very patient and really takes his time. It’s one of the best traits I find, because it’s also a really rare trait that I’ve also found in journeyman as well, because, well, they’ve been doing this for how many years? They already know. They’re competent. They got their confidence. They’ve got everything that they need. They just want to get the job done, a lot of the times. And when you’ve got an apprentice there and you’ve got to take your time and step back a couple of times maybe, and re-elaborate, it can get a little frustrating, which I totally understand. But in the same sense, I’m also the student and I do need this information in order to be the best electrician, so that patience is one of the best traits that I really appreciate in my journeyman.

SD: And different people have different ways of learning, right? So a good mentor, a good journeyman, will understand the needs of the apprentice so that they’re giving them the best environment to learn in.

HS: Yeah, exactly.

SD: What about you, Soveigh, any mentors that have played an important part in your career so far?

SB: Yeah, I feel very fortunate to have quite a few mentors since I’ve entered the workforce, and I’m not sure everyone could say the same. So I do feel very lucky for that. And just like Harley, I feel not just that the technical knowledge in the way that they’re mentoring me is valuable, because I do look at these guys and they’ve been working for 40 years and I’m like, wow, I can’t fathom ever being so capable with that much knowledge. And they’ve always been like, it just takes time. Like when I was your age and I was just starting out, I didn’t know any of this stuff. So I think that that’s been reassuring to hear, because you tend to compare yourself to the people that you’re working with, and you forget that you haven’t been given the same opportunities or had spent the same amount of time on those skills to get to that level. And it’s not a race. Everybody does it in their own time. But I think that I’ve also been very fortunate in like the compassion that I’ve faced. I think that people have been very encouraging of me. There’s something very magical in somebody else, being proud of you and encouraging you and wanting to see you win, as opposed to just having to be that for yourself. And I think that I’ve been very lucky to have multiple men that I work with lift me up whether I’m winning an award and they want to tell everybody about it. And I’m like sshh I didn’t want anyone to know. But they’re like, no, you should you should be celebrating that. And you deserve to be celebrated. And I think that having people like that have your back is like inexplainable of the positive feeling that it gives you.

SD: I agree. You were nominated for an award recently, weren’t you?

SB:I was, and I like I didn’t tell anybody, but yeah, some of the guys saw it in the paper, I guess, and then they were like, oh, I saw you were nominated for an award. And I was like, yeah, sshh. I wasn’t telling anyone about that. And then they’re like, no, we need to tell everybody. And that was kind of like really interesting to see because I was proud of the award for myself. But I think almost part of me was like ashamed to tell people about it. It felt like chauvinistic or like I was bragging that I was receiving this award. And that’s not how it was received by anyone else at all. Everybody was like, no, you deserved that. You absolutely crushed it. I can’t think of a more deserving person. I was like, shocked. I was like, wow. Like, I think as people, we very rarely express how we feel about somebody else in a positive manner and how big of an impact somebody had on our life. And so I think it takes moments like that to realize, wow, you know what? Actually, maybe I’m a more important player in this person’s life than I realized.

SD: You know, it’s so true I think people are so ready to complain when something’s going wrong. Yes, but when something’s going well and, you know, it’s just it’s smooth or you’re happy or you’re pleased, some people don’t feel inspired or as encouraged to say something about it as when they’re mad or complaining about something. But it’s lovely that people came out to support you and really showed you what you meant to them and how much you mattered. Would you mind telling us what the award was for?

SB: Yeah, sure. So I was nominated for a Woman of the Year in Skilled Trades for the I believe this year it was the BMO Woman of the Year Awards with KW Octoberfest, and I had been nominated previously as well. I was fortunate enough to be renominated again this year, and I guess this year it got a bigger spotlight. And I was like, oh wow, this is this is so nice

of you guys to honor me in that way.

SD: Congratulations.

SB: Thank you very much.

SD: That’s amazing. And that’s really helpful when you’re early in your career to help keep building your confidence, right? As you’re advancing and learning because of, you know, we’ve talked before about it’s tough being new and not knowing everything and having lots of questions and being uncertain. So this is certainly a nice boost to your confidence for sure. Yes. So, Harley, you’ve had experience working in many different industries and environments. Can you tell us a little bit about that sort of your journey through those different industries, those different apprenticeships, and what challenges have helped you grow the most professionally through those?

HS: I first started in automotive. I was looking to be a mechanic. Automotive technician was the trade that I was in. I quickly learned that it’s one of the worst trades, in the sense that you do so much hard work and get such little in return. The pay is not as good as it should be. So from there, I decided I need to start exploring and going to different careers. I went into forklift operating and I was doing forklift operating and working in warehouses. From there I go about myself into concrete and epoxy work, and I was working construction on that. In 2020, when COVID hit and there was a bunch of layoffs. I had the least seniority and I got laid off at my place. So it was a new opportunity for me to regrow myself and start a new career. That’s when I found electrical, and I made the swap to become a 309A electrician apprentice. Some challenges that I found within that was having to restart myself from the bottom. So when I was working in automotive, I was getting myself up the scale. I was working up the ladder and I was about halfway there, and I climbed back down

and I started over a forklift operating. I did the same thing, and I got myself to the maximum pay that you can possibly get in that industry and field. It wasn’t enough for me, so I decided to change again and start from the bottom as electrician helper, which then got me into my electrician apprentice position.

SD: I think that’s hugely powerful, what I take from that story, I mean, there’s so many things, but just that knowledge that you must feel or I guess I should ask you if you do feel. But what I hear is that you’ve got this ability to keep starting. You don’t give up. There’s this powerful resilience about that story and that you know that no matter where you land, you’re going to even if you’re starting from the bottom again, you’re going to climb that ladder again and get to where you need to get. I mean, I think that’s hugely powerful.

HS: Thank you. Yeah. That’s that’s yeah. That’s right. We always start somewhere. And starting somewhere is the beginning of something beautiful.

SD: Yeah. If anything so much opportunity right.

SB: I have to agree. Not a lot of people have the bravery to do that. But I really respect you a lot for just starting over.

HS: Yeah, it’s tough too, with your pay and you’re living on your own and you’ve got your own life that you’re building and trying to keep going, and you’re cutting yourself down again and constantly,

but restarting and learning new things. It’s really good.

SD: That is really good. I love that story. And Soveigh, we talked before about building your confidence. When you’re new and you’re just starting out, you feel like you don’t know

as much as you’d like to know. I mean, winning an award or being nominated for an award is certainly one way to boost confidence, but most people aren’t going to maybe experience that. Yes. So how else have you worked to build your confidence in your role as you’re growing in it?

SB: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think a lot of it comes down to mindset. That’s a that’s a huge part of it. Obviously not everything you’re going to do, you’re going to walk around with your head held high, proud of what you did or full of confidence. But I think it’s important to have a mindset, that positive mindset of, okay, I’m going to approach everything that I’m learning with an open mind, like a sponge. I’m going to try to absorb as much as possible. No one will ever fault you for not knowing something. If you’re open to learning it. As soon as you close yourself down and you brush off information and you have a poor attitude, that is when things start to work against you. I think one thing that I myself experienced, and I think is common among most new or young workers, is we are terrified of making mistakes. I feel like the whole time you’re growing up, you’re told like mistakes are like the worst possible thing that you could ever do. Don’t make mistakes. And I couldn’t disagree more with that statement. I think mistakes are actually the key to being successful. That being said, making the same mistake over and over again is a problem. But making a mistake is the most effective way to learn, and I think that that’s the forefront of being in the trades is you do something, you make a mistake and you go, oh, I am never doing that again. And I think that that’s like a full body sensation that you have when you make a mistake. And I know that I’ve made multiple mistakes. And the other part of making mistakes is not hiding them. So like, yeah, you might not be proud to go up to your journeyman and be like, hey, so you know, that task that you asked me to do that should have been really simple. Yeah, I messed it up. And I think that when you first start out, you kind of carry shame with having to go up to them and say like, hey, you know, you gave me that really easy thing. And I messed it up. But in reality, by admitting your mistake: One, you’re taking your ego off the table and saying, hey, you know what? You gave me some responsibility and I messed it up. Two, you are identifying that there’s that problem now when it’s easy to fix as opposed to hiding it, and later on finding it, and it is significantly more difficult to deal with. So that right there gains you respect from the people that you work with. And I think by building those relationships and knowing that those people have your back, I think it helps you build confidence in yourself when you get to a point where you’re never going to stop making mistakes, but you start to make less mistakes. And a mentor that I have told me, it’s not about how many mistakes you make, it’s about how well you’re able to fix your mistakes that matters. And I think that that really resonates with continuing to build that confidence as you gain that experience.

HS: I agree you wouldn’t learn how to fix the mistakes without making the mistake in the first place. 

SD: Sometimes you learn more from the task because there’s that new layer of knowledge from what it took to fix the mistake, right?

SB: Absolutely. A lot of times to another coworker that you have ends up making mistakes that you’ve already experienced. And while you’re not going to take over the job for them, a lot of times it’s very beneficial to have that input from somebody being like, oh, you know what? I’ve had this happen before. It’s no biggie. This is how I fixed it. And you might not follow step by step what they did, but having that kind of like context to that error, you’re like, oh, okay, this person did this thing. That piece of that is helpful. And I might use that and, you know, tweak it a little bit to how I learn or, you know, my situation. So it’s kind of like you’re learning from your own mistake, but then you’re also morphing other people’s knowledge and tackling it from multiple perspectives, which can be beneficial as well.

SD: Absolutely. I like the point too that you made about admitting your mistakes. I think that’s really important around ownership. Right? And accountability. Is so important. And if you admit it too, I think that builds trust with your colleagues, whether it’s your journeyman or your whatever other boss is, you know, like you’re taking ownership for it. They trust you to be transparent about that and to then own the solution. How are you going to fix it? What are we going to do? I want to know how to fix this. I want to learn how to fix this. And I think that builds trust over time.

SB: It absolutely does.  I think that that’s an important step in also being given more responsibility or more interesting challenges, because the people that are hiding their mistakes, they might get, you know, the job no one wants to do because they know that that person maybe is not honest, can’t be trusted with the more difficult stuff, but the person that’s, you know, humble and willing to say, hey, you know what? Things didn’t go the way I expected. They’re usually given a lot more trust and responsibility, and they get to do the cool work.

SD: I think that’s a really important word you just said, like humble. Humility, right I don’t think you can learn without being humble.

SB: Not at all.

SD: Right. Okay, Harley, what is one piece of advice that you would give somebody that’s currently in school or in training and trying to decide whether this type of career is right for them in the trades?

HS: I would say, say yes to everything, do anything and everything you can. If you’re ever given an opportunity to try this or try that, do it. You never know. You might learn something about yourself that you didn’t know before.

SD: I think that’s great life advice, not just for skilled trades, but for life.

HS: That’s right. Go for it if you want it, go for it.

SD: Absolutely.

HS: The worst is going to come out. Somebody is going to say no, go somewhere else. Try there. Keep pursuing. Never give up. Eventually it works.

SB: And I think, like you don’t always necessarily learn something about the job. Sometimes

you learn something about yourself and that’s just as important.

HS: That’s right. Whether or not, you know.  Okay, well, I learned now that I don’t do well sitting at a computer. I had a computer job in high school, and I actually fell asleep multiple times. And yeah, my last day, my supervisor came to me and woke me up. And I got up and we both looked at each other and we were kind of on the same page, and we were like, yeah, this is not working out for me or you. We know what’s going to happen right now. I’ll probably never see you again.

SD: And, well, like Soveigh said, you learn something about you.

HS: Yeah, yeah. Learned on real quick. I’m not good with sitting down for long periods of time.

SD: And there are lots of other options. Right? But you just got to learn, learn and move on. What about you, Soveigh? What’s that one piece of advice you give somebody?

SB: I would say it’s not so far away from what Harley is saying. I think try to find as many opportunities where you can try something that you’re interested in, like a try before you buy type of thing. I think the biggest thing that I found in terms of skilled trades before I went into them, was they were very rare opportunities in which you could see what a day in that career looks like unless you had a direct family member that worked that job, right? We spend 12 years learning English. We spend 12 years learning math. We spend however many years learning science and French. But unless you actively pursue an opportunity to experience some type of skilled trades, there really isn’t any exposure to it. So I think that it’s really important to find any of those programs that they have at the college that will let you come in and try different workshops from different trades, see what resonates most with you. What do you like? Even a lot of times if you reach out to companies and say like, hey, you know, I’m interested in pursuing this career, would it be possible for me to come on a tour of your facility? A lot of times people will open their door and take you through their facility so you can see what that looks like. You might not be able to work directly with them just for health and safety reasons, but I think the most exposure that you can get and see like, okay, would I actually enjoy the day in and day out tasks of this job is what’s going to be most beneficial, because you don’t want to go through all of the education just to figure out that you hate that, right? I don’t think that you want to do that regardless of the industry that it’s in. Just the difference being here that like I said, unless you know somebody that does it, you really haven’t ever experienced it before.

HS: Even like what you were saying too before, how you were saying how you did like extracurricular stuff, you could even applying that into the same sense, like you were saying, you have a family member who’s getting a roof redone. Sneak yourself in there. I love that. Yes! Why should you do anything. You got family members who are doing renovations on a house in some point. Like you said, it’s like extra. You can use that as extracurricular and ask questions, maybe even get yourself on the tools.

SB: I think that’s super valuable.

SD: So one of the themes that I heard today is that success is not just about your education. It starts there, but it’s also about being willing to learn to ask questions, to seek out mentorship, to build relationships, and to take opportunities, to seek out opportunities when they arise. So I think that is a really important lesson. I really enjoyed this conversation. I want to thank you both, Soveigh and Harley, for sharing your stories and insights with us today. And to our listeners, thanks for joining. Stay tuned for future ATS Enabling Automation podcasts. And always remember to stay curious, stay responsible, and stay human.