Women in Engineering

We’re excited to bring you our first-ever podcast series, Enabling Automation. This monthly podcast series will bring together industry leaders from across ATS Automation to discuss the latest industry trends, new innovations and more!

In our tenth and final episode of season 2, host Simon Drexler is joined by Sarita Dankner and Barb Willoughby to discuss Women in Engineering.

What we discuss:

• Why are women underrepresented in engineering?
• What change has been happening?
• Belonging in the workplace
• Diversity improves innovation and automation

Host: Simon Drexler, ATS Corporation (ATS Products Group)

Simon has been in the automation industry for approximately 15 years in a variety of roles, ranging from application engineering to business leadership, as well as serving several different industries and phases of the automation lifecycle.

Guest: Sarita Dankner, ATS Corporation 

Sarita Dankner is the Associate General Counsel for North America for ATS Corporation. She has been with ATS for about four years and has been a lawyer for over 20. She is on the steering committee for the Professional Women’s Network, an Employee Resource Group (ERG) at ATS.

Guest: Barb Willoughby, ATS Corporation (ATS Products Group)

Barb Willoughby is the Director of Operations for the Products Group within the ATS Group of companies. She as been with the organization for eight years. She work with the ATS Professional Women’s Network as a member of the steering committee. She  also supports the Canadian Manufacturers and Exports Organization on their Women in Manufacturing PR Council.

——Full Transcript of Enabling Automation: S2, E10——

SD: Hello and welcome to episode ten of our Enabling Automation podcast, where we bring experts from around the ATS group of machine builders to provide insight on topics that are relevant to those looking to either implement or drive technology change inside of their organizations. My name is Simon Drexler. I’m the host of the podcast. I look after the product division inside of ATS, which drives standardization and technology innovation inside the variety of machine builders that exist inside the group. I’ve been a part of the industry for about 15 years in a variety of different roles as well as a variety of different companies, company sizes, start ups and large enterprises. We have a really interesting topic today for our finale of Season Two, which is Women in Manufacturing. We’re very fortunate to be joined by two experts inside the ATS group on this topic, Barb Willoughby and Sarita Danker. Barb, can you give an introduction to the listener base, please?

BW: Certainly. And thank you very much for having me here today. I’m Barb Willoughby. I’m the Director of Operations for the Products Group within the ATS Group of companies. Been with the organization for eight years, currently kind of work within the our ERG Employee Resource Group, ATS Professional Women’s Network, which I sit on the steering committee. And then I also support through the Canadian Manufacturers and Exports Organization on their Women in Manufacturing PR Council. So glad to be here.

SD: Thank you for joining us. And Sarita, how about yourself.

SDa: Thanks for having me as well. My name is Sarita Dankner. I’m the associate general counsel for North America for ATS. I’ve been at ATS for about four years now and been a lawyer for over 20. I’m also on the steering committee for the Professional Women’s Network with Barb. And very happy to be here today.

SD: I’m very happy to have you. And on this podcast, one of the things that we talk about is the need for different opinions, different viewpoints. Automation is about bringing an ecosystem together to create something new and with that framing view of the industry. Why do you believe that women continue to be underrepresented in the engineering profession?

SDa: I think I’m going to start by answering that question just a little differently, by saying just how important diversity in general is important to automation, to engineering, to science as a whole. Diversity helps people study things from new perspectives, from different perspectives. It adds creativity. It brings more innovation, better results. So it’s true that women are underrepresented in manufacturing, in engineering as a whole, but it reflects really an element of what’s lacking from a diversity perspective. And not just that women are underrepresented, but it’s just not a diverse enough industry and that it could benefit so much if we would really focus on trying to make it more diverse.

SD: I see what you’re saying. So the value or the metric of women in manufacturing is sort of a proxy for diversity as a whole. And creating more diversity across the industry is really the target.

SDa: Absolutely. I mean, women have so much to bring, but so do all sorts of other underrepresented groups into engineering and manufacturing.

SD: And Barb would you be able to drive, is there a couple of reasons or a couple of things that you believe drive that in the manufacturing industry today?

BW: It’s a good question, and I think it’s one that, you know, people have been trying to answer for many years. I think a lot of it stems back to, I think, how we are raised, how we’re kind of socialized, how we’re brought up. And I think there’s almost a split at a very young age, especially kind of from a female perspective. And you talk about kind of female roles in engineering even in today’s environment and, you know, the toy aisle at the store is a perfect example, if you go to the toy aisle, sorry, and there’s still a pink section with tiaras and princesses and dolls. And that’s what girls are being promoted to focus on at a very young age. And that kind of starts to carry with them kind of throughout their young school years when they transition into high school, they’re kind of at the beginning already being diverted away from kind of engineering, technical STEM type careers and also like even from that kind of playing capacity, they’re not playing in like spatial environments because they’re not playing with construction toys or Legos and stuff like that. They’re kind of more focused on how they look and dressing up dolls and stuff like that. And so I think that kind of division is starting at a very young age and it kind of just drives with the female population as they kind of transition through their various years and then having to make that decision of what do I want to pursue? And engineering tends not to be one of those.

SDa: Right. I agree. And I think that that’s perpetuated then also by parents and teachers unwittingly. Like it’s not no one’s trying to be malicious or say that girls are not good enough. They don’t know any better. This is the concept of unconscious bias, right? To some degree. And I’m not sure that everybody does a great job of really encouraging girls to give it a shot. You can do this, lean in and give it a try. You’re good at this. Recognizing aptitudes in math and sciences specifically when they’re younger so that they feel that they should give it a try and they have the confidence to give it a try. You know, and I was actually just thinking about this recently. My daughter is in grade 12 and she is going into university next year and she wants to be a civil engineer and we’re obviously so proud of her. So shout out to Sophie, but just wanted to say that I thought about how she got here and, you know, she’s very accomplished and she’s very confident in her ability. But how did she get there and why she potentially different than maybe some other girls and the tracks that they’ve chosen And a lot of it, you know, I’d like to think that her parents, you know, her father and I had something to do with it. But her teachers especially, I can think of a couple specifically who were really supportive of her from a very, very young age and recognized how good she was, the proficiency that she had in those subjects and said, you know, said to us, said to her, keep trying, keep going. You’re doing great. This is awesome. And really gave her the confidence to move forward and advance herself in those areas. And I think that doesn’t happen enough. And we need to be more conscious of that and really actively pursue that with the younger generation.

SD: This conversation resonates so strongly with me. I am a father as well. I have an eight year old daughter and a six year old son at home. To hear that there’s change inside of the school system is really encouraging for me to make sure that that all opportunities are available to the younger generation, mine and others. And is that an accurate statement that you’ve actually seen a change in trend in some of the younger versions or younger education where there’s more encouragement?

BW: I think there is a trend. It’s been a slow trend, but there’s a lot. I think it’s becoming more obvious of where organizations, whether they’re businesses or organizations that kind of cater to diversity and inclusion, that we have to start focusing in on a younger age. And so I’m part of an organization like through the CME, we have a focus group where we’re going to start going into schools and advocate for manufacturing and kind of be an ambassador. And it’s to help again at those early ages explain what manufacturing is and so that they get that understanding. So the earlier they’re getting it, then they can kind of start to kind of focus how they can kind of transition through the school. But it’s also not just for the kids, it’s to educate the guidance counselors and the teachers too to be comfortable talking about what manufacturing is, what STEM is, so they know how to promote it, too, so that when someone’s in grade 12 having to make that, you know, fairly critical decision in their life, they’re looking at a broader spectrum of careers and not just the ones that we stereotypically think of.

SD: I’ve heard people who are involved in those types of initiatives use the phrase, if you can see it, you can be it is that the right approach to those types of initiatives?

SDa: I think so. And I also think conversely, not to approach it negatively, but if you can’t see it, you can’t be it. So we, you know, young women need those role models. They need to see, you know, women in leadership and women in engineering and women in these professional fields. And this does also translate outside of engineering and manufacturing and science as well in all professions really. You need to see you need to you need to see what you want to be in order to become it and to see that it’s possible to feel that it’s possible. So if we’re if we’re not advancing women in these leadership or senior roles so that younger the younger generation can see, I can do that. They did it. I can do it. If they don’t see it, they won’t, it may not even occur to them that they could do it.

BW:  It’s not just about the advancing, though. It’s also about the visibility. So I think there’s an aspect that when women get themselves into those roles, they have to be a visible advocate. They can’t just sit at their desk and say, Yep, I made it to director or I made it to VP. They have to put themselves in a position where they visibly that the outside audience can see it.

SD: And is that the role of like the professional women’s network inside of organizations and is that part of the importance of those types of resource groups?

SDa: Yeah, it is. We started the Professional Women’s Network at ATS, our first business resource group at ATS. And we were we were first and we were new, so we were still figuring out exactly who we wanted to be and where we fit. But we did know that we just wanted to support. We wanted to support women, make women feel heard and safe. They had a place to voice, you know, how they felt, who they were, amongst other people that care to listen and care to share, and ultimately wanting to make them, women, at ATS feel elevated and empowered. That’s our goal. At the very least, we are a group of women who are, I think, really strongly supportive of each other and continue to try to open up this conversation, exactly this kind of conversation, so that people are aware that there are people that are willing to listen and who care about it.

SD: I’ve become through actually very fortunate dealings with Barb, a lot more aware of unconscious bias. And that led me to want to drive these deeper conversations and more visibility to these types of topics, because that unconscious bias piece resonates so strongly with me because you can be doing things and you don’t even know that are limiting others. And that’s exactly what you don’t want to do because you want to drive for diversity of view. You want to drive diversity of opinion because then that gives your best chance of success.

BW: No, I would agree. And I think when if you kind of relate it back to kind of like women in engineering and kind of women in the STEM fields, when you look at a lot of the reports and a lot of the research, almost 85% of women who’ve entered either education, STEM education or like STEM fields have felt that they’ve had some sort of discrimination against them and that discrimination is in the result of an unconscious bias. So and I would say a lot of the times it’s not intentional, but it’s what is causing them to really consider why are they in this field? Because they’re dealing with microaggressions that we had a great conversation about earlier today. And it’s making them ask why? Why am I putting myself in this situation? And so I think the whole notion of learning and understanding more about unconscious bias is something that we have to do as an organization and what we need to do as individuals so we can make sure that people feel equal.

SDa: Yes. Yes. And if we go back, we tie this back to earlier in the conversation around why? Why are women underrepresented in automation, in STEM, in engineering? You know, we talked about when they’re very young, we talked about when they’re in high school and thinking about their, you know, professional education decisions. But then there’s the phase when they get into the workplace. And there can also that’s another deterrent, because even if they’ve made it that far, then it’s another hurdle. It’s  a tough one, sometimes, and it can be because of unconscious bias. It can feel like a very unwelcome corporate culture and it doesn’t feel like a very friendly, safe, inclusive place. And we in the PWN we talk a lot about not just inclusion but belonging, right? So everybody, you know, not everybody, it it’s very common to say diversity and inclusion, but inclusion isn’t enough. You need to feel like you belong. And there’s a phrasing that people use that helps me to understand the distinction. So if you think that diversity is like being invited to the party, inclusion is being asked to dance, belonging is getting to choose the music from your playlist. So it means that you actually feel like you can be your full self when you’re there. So just being brought in inclusion is simply a behavior, but belonging is the emotional outcome. If it’s done properly. So to have women not just be in engineering or STEM, but stay in engineering or STEM, we need to create an environment for them that they’ll want to stay in, and that is welcoming. So, you know, to Barb’s point, there’s all sorts of biases that that we experience. Microaggressions are one form of them. There’s something called affinity bias, which is our tendency to want to be around or to gravitate to people who are like us. So generally, you know, like men who like sports, will gravitate to men who like sports. And if there’s a woman in the room who doesn’t watch sports, then she’s likely not going to feel like she can be part of that conversation and she won’t probably be invited to, I don’t know, the bar after work to watch the game. You know, it’s all those little things that make her feel she’s not a part of things, really. She’s got the job, but she doesn’t feel like she belongs there. And then there’s something called gender bias, which is the tendency to prefer one sex over another. And that means that in a lot of cases, men are getting promotions that women should be at least considered for and they’re not, or they’re being included in projects or getting visibility into management that women are not because of this gender bias. And all of these are unconscious biases. To Barb’s point, before they’re not most of them are not intentional. We don’t know we’re doing them. We all have biases. No one’s immune from a bias. So it takes a very active and conscious effort to overcome these biases because they’re built into all of us. But I think we need to do it. You have to be intentional.

SD: You have to be intentional.  Thank you so much for joining today. Like the analogy, I think I feel like I’m learning so much the analogy about being at the party will stick with me for a very long time. Talking about belonging. Is there a best practice or an area of specific focus that you would share with the listener base of how you help to address or help to drive belonging inside of the workforce?

BW:  I think there’s an aspect of training and just education, like having transparent conversations about, you know, biases or microaggressions and just like diversity and inclusion in general. But I also feel that allyship is just as important, if not more important. And allyship is about making the invisible visible, right? And so and a lot of when you talk about gender inequality, it’s that opposite gender who is becoming that ally for the person who is feeling or deemed invisible and starting to work through like sponsorship and mentorship and just making the environment more supportive and also more accepting of differences and promoting those differences.

SD: And so it comes back to that word intentional. You take action, drive a support system to help people speak up, help people be visible, help create those opportunities.

SDa: Exactly. And I think the more you talk about it and educate about it, it continues to open up the conversation even more broadly. It becomes part of the language as opposed to just this sort of interruption in your general day to day. It’s part of the ordinary course. This is what we talk about. This is what we’re conscious of. This is what we’re great word intentional about. And it’s a journey. There’s not one point where you say you’re finished. You’re never it’s not it’s it just has to be weaved into your daily life as a reality and as a conscious effort to raise awareness and to be respectful and be accepting of people. Because again, it’s not just women, right? It’s all so many different marginalized or underrepresented groups that feel that way. And I believe that most people don’t want to make other people feel bad. They don’t know they’re doing it most of the time. I really genuinely believe that. And if they if they knew, they would stop those behaviors, they would they would adjust. They would course correct because they don’t want to make other people feel bad. So it’s about education. It’s always about learning. And for all of us, I mean, we know more about this topic today than we did, for example, a decade ago or even five years ago. It’s constantly reevaluating who people are and what people need. The goal is diversity and inclusion. It’s not assimilation, right? It’s diversity and inclusion. We want we want to have everybody, you know, showing up as themselves and feeling comfortable to do so.

BW: But I think the conversation is becoming more and more important. There is a really good study that came out by McKinsey back in the fall, and we’re kind of going through this period right now that’s being called the great breakup. It’s around women leaders and what they’re finding is, you know, we’re struggling at the beginning where, like for every hundred men that get promoted, there’s only 87 women who get promoted. And so and as you kind of go through the succession funnel, that decreases over time, it’s kind of like the same percentages. But obviously the numbers are dwindling. Then they’re finding now that for every woman who is getting promoted, two senior women leaders are leaving an organization. And so now we’re in this momentum of catch up. And if we’re not promoting at a rate that’s like within parity, like between the genders, we are never going to get caught up. And so we’re having to understand not about the attraction side, but it’s now about the retention side. So once you get those, you know, females and female engineers into the organization, what do we have to do to retain? And I think it ties back to the conversation around training and allyship and mentorship. But it’s also even broader. You know, it’s around like flexibility within the work environment. Women are still tending to be the primary caregivers at home. So the flexibility to deal with those environments at home. I was in a great conversation at lunchtime where they were talking about don’t have meetings after 3:00 in the afternoon because you’ll find a large portion of the female leaders or just females in general are having to go home to go to daycare, pick up their kids and bring them home, and they feel like they’re missing out on meetings just because they have another obligation. And so it’s that that need for looking at our work environments and in a different way in order to be able to support and promote.

SD: And it’s not it’s not just about feeling like missing an opportunity. It’s an actual missed opportunity. Yeah. You know, to your point about allyship and creating opportunity to be there and be present, if the meeting is happening at a time that it’s inconvenient to a key member of the team, yeah, they are missing an opportunity to contribute and be a part of that discussion. Yeah. And then that can perpetuate.

SDa:  It does perpetuate.

SD: Yes it does perpetuate, Yeah, absolutely. We’ve talked about STEM education, bringing more diversity into the university fields. Is there work happening at the university level, at the local universities, University of Waterloo. But those or other organizations that impact women and diverse groups in STEM?

BW:  There’s a lot of, I’m gonna say, external organizations that are working with the universities and the colleges. Engineers of Tomorrow is a great example. There’s another Go Eng Girl is an initiative that a lot of the local universities are a part of where they are bringing younger girls, females into the universities and having the university students kind of explain what is engineering, what are the things that we are doing and what are the things that you can do. And so it’s not just about and I say the businesses, there are a lot of external organizations that are getting involved in the conversation to kind of help promote STEM and getting females into STEM roles.

SDa: Even though Barb is certainly much more involved in leading the community outreach part of our professional women’s network, I can speak from only personal experience in that my daughter just again went through all this, these this application process to go to universities including Waterloo, including Toronto, McMaster, Western, Queens, you know, and they all had very robust, I’m going to say, promotional programs around trying to attract girls, females into their programs. I really, really robust and I’d almost I’d almost border on aggressive but I loved it. I loved it because it just showed that they were really passionate about the initiative and understood the significance of having to really persuade girls that this you’ll feel at home here. This is you’ll feel safe here. This is your place. And it’s honestly for my daughter has been a really awesome experience. She’s nothing but excited. There’s no trepidation. She is only confident that she’ll fit in and she’ll succeed. It’s honestly so exciting to watch.

SD: And it comes back to that word intentional, where these big programs are taking an active role in driving a change. We want to change something we want to be better, I would say. And there’s actual activity and examples of how to do that.

SDa: Yes, absolutely. And I’d like to think that that’s going to translate or, you know, sort of be infectious. All these, you know, brilliant students, male and female, that are going to be graduating, have graduated, are going to be graduating. It’s that culture that hopefully they’re experiencing that you’ve just described in their university lives that will translate into the workplace and they’re going to help make us better, too. I believe that. I do as well.

BW:  I think similar to like how businesses are starting to develop like these ERGs or employee resource groups or business resource groups. The universities are doing the same, like they’re developing initiatives like, you know, the University of Waterloo, which we do a lot of work with as the women in engineering organization. I know McMaster has a very similar one, and I believe Guelph does as well. So there’s a lot of intentional work that is being done to kind of just help promote the conversation of getting more girls and more females involved in the STEM roles. And another interesting fact that I learned this week through the World Economic Forum, it predicts that by 2050, 75% of our jobs are going to be reliant on STEM. And right now, only 22% of STEM roles are filled by females. And so to think of how much transformation in the job sector there will be in the next 30 years, we need to start doing things now because the people are going to fill those roles are in kindergarten.

SD: Wow.  It’s an incredible stat to frame the challenge that we have in front of us. Yeah, it’s a gap to make up and something that absolutely needs to be addressed.

SDa: Yeah. I don’t even know how you would. You would meet that demand with only men like, I don’t think the numbers are even there.

BW: They’re not. You are discounting 50% of the population. That’s right. If you only look at one gender to fill the roles. Yeah. You have to look at the full population, in order to support those type of targets.

SD:  A lot of our listener base is small to medium sized organizations. They’re still looking to build their culture, build their business, scale their organization. And for those that this discussion has resonated with, where would you point them for resources to better understand the challenge and better understand approaches to driving belonging inside of their organizations?

BW: So my immediate response, just because of my familiarity, is like we have the Canadian Manufacturing and Exporters organization here in Canada who is doing a lot of work through their women in manufacturing pillar. So I think it’s connecting with like minded companies, right? And we have a lot of like minded companies who are part of that organization. And so I think it’s about consolidating or collaborating on the conversation, right? There’s no one pioneer. Everyone’s in the same situation. And so I think it’s having those common conversations. And I think it’s I think we have to do a better job of collaborate, not just within our organization, but among organizations, because it’s that whole notion of strength in numbers. And so there are a lot of different entities and you know, initiatives that are trying to tackle the same problem. But I think we would be able to do it much better if we were doing it together. And so organizations like the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters allow that togetherness to happen, to allow that collaboration. And I think there’s a lot more other entities out there that are similar, but it’s the one that I’m most familiar with.

SDa: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I would also add that there’s tons of resources out there just to learn. Back to the earlier point that we were talking about learning and education. There’s so much out there where we can, the resources are honestly limitless online. There’s the Canadian Center for Diversity and Inclusion that’s got tons of resources that are free and, you know, really just really good resources. And there’s the Lean In organization. There are so many that give you tools and resources and links and people you can speak to. And none of this is prohibitive from a cost perspective. In fact, most of it is free. And I would encourage people to just really dig in and just start learning. And, you know, to Barb’s point, start having conversations and the word spreads, the learning spreads. And if you’re interested, you’ll find what you need. I believe if you seek it out, you will find it. What’s that expression?  If you build it. If you build it, they will come. And again, you know, just how important diversity is, you know, for the organization in in really driving innovation, you know, those perspectives from all those different angles, you cannot come to the same solution without those different perspectives. And the research, the stats all show that a diverse team of problem solvers is going to outperform a non-diverse team. A diverse team is going to innovate better than a non-diverse team. You know, apart from what it does for employee morale and the requirements that we all have legally from a regulatory perspective, ESG governance, you know, we need to start thinking about diversity, but it does so much for the company and for its people. And ultimately, what we’re talking about today, automation and what it can drive in that space.

SD:  I think that does such a great job of explaining why this was an excellent topic for the podcast as a whole. We’re all passionate about automation. We want to find ways to enable more companies and more people to be involved in this great industry and deploy great technology and diversity of workforce. Diversity of opinion and viewpoint, help us get there faster and more effectively.

BW: And I think it also allows us to produce a product that actually supports a more diverse population. There have been a number of stories where if you have a very, if you lack diversity, I’m going to say within your innovation kind of team, there have been products that have been released or launched to the general public that only work for a certain portion or population because other traits within the population weren’t recognized during that, that innovation or that product development. And you don’t want to be the company that basically is going in with blinders on and doing a product design that supports only a portion of the population you’re trying to attract versus the larger population.

SDa: You don’t want a hard code bias into your design.

SD:  like that. Yeah, definitely not. Do you have an example of one of those products, Barb?

BW: I do. So one that I know you’re familiar with. The hand dryer and the team invented a hand dryer that only recognized white hands. And so when it was installed in or in places where there is color, the dryer didn’t work because of the technology and how it was designed. And I’m making a large presumption here, but I’m presuming that the team who did the product design and product development were predominantly white engineers, white scientist, and again, very unintentional, but they overlooked a portion of the population in their product design.

SDa: That blows my mind. I did not know that.

SD: It’s always blown my mind as well. It’s an example that’ll stick with me forever. It was actually some unconscious bias training that we were doing where that example came up and will resonate with me for the rest of my life.

BW: Me too.

SD: Barb, Sarita, thank you so much for joining the podcast today. What a fantastic conversation. I have to say that I have learned so much over the period of time that we’ve been chatting before we close out. Is there any closing thought that you want to leave our listeners with?

BW: I think for me it’s like I love the notion and we talked about it like, if you can’t be me, sorry, if you can’t see me, you can’t be me. I think it’s about how do you make things more visible? So it’s around that allyship, it’s around the sponsorship and mentorship and it’s going right back to the early stages of girls and females. Like it can’t just start happening in the workplace. It has to start happening sooner.

SDa: I agree. I would echo that and I would say it has to start happening sooner and it has to be sustained, period. It and that’s an effort that’s an active effort. I think this goes to Barb’s point about, you know, you don’t just get a woman into the role. She has to be visible and there has to be there has to be action taken. This is a constant, active, intentional effort. It might feel overwhelming potentially for some organizations if they’ve not thought about it before or actively pursued it before. But it’s really not that hard, nor is it rocket science. It’s just about treating people with respect and allow them to be who they are and recognizing them for what they can bring. I think we’ve made progress. I think there’s a lot more to be made, but I’m very excited about the direction we’re going in. And I also want to thank you so much for having me today. It’s been a great conversation. Really enjoyed it.

SD: Great. I’m happy that you enjoyed it as well.

BW: I just can I add one final point? And I think the effort that Sarita was describing, it can’t just come from the females within the organization or it has to come from everyone. Because another great stat that came from the McKinsey study is one of the reasons women are leaving the organization is because they’re feeling overworked and in one of the areas where they’re feeling that they’re putting more work and effort in is spending time on conversations around diversity and inclusion, uniqueness and belonging. The conversation is one sided. And so in order for that burnout or being felt like they’re overworked and they’re the only one’s driving the conversation, the conversation has to be driven by everyone. It has to be a shared responsibility.

SD: And I think that’s one of the things that at least I’m really happy we’ve had the conversation today because I hope for those that are listening, it helps you to open the conversation inside of your teams, inside of your organization, because it’s a conversation that helps drive the organization forward. It’s a conversation that helps bring diversity of viewpoint to the table and ultimately leads to a more successful project, a more successful culture, a more successful business. To our listener base, thank you very much for joining us today. I hope you found today’s conversation informative and something that you can take back to your organization. This actually closes season two of our Enabling Automation podcast. So thank you for joining us for this season and we look forward to bringing season three out soon.